馬軍 用手機應用向污染宣戰

Ma Jun, a former journalist who has become one of China’s most prominent environmentalists, was recently honored with a Skoll Award for Social Entrepreneurship for the work of his nongovernmental organization, the Institute of Public and Environmental Affairs, in increasing awareness about sources of pollution in an interview, he described recent changes in the public’s concerns about the environment, his efforts to increase transparency about the sources of pollution and his organization’s launch of a new version of a mobile phone application that allows users to track the state of air and water degradation and learn how to make more environmentally sound decisions when they shop. Excerpts follow:

作爲中國最爲傑出的環保主義人士之一，曾作過記者的馬軍所創辦的非政府組織公衆與環境研究中心(Institute of Public and Environmental Affairs)增強了中國公衆對污染源的意識。近日，他因此獲頒“斯科爾社會企業家獎”(Skoll Award for Social Entrepreneurship)。在接受採訪時，馬軍談到了公衆近年在環境關注方面的轉變，自己在提高污染源透明度方面的努力，以及公衆與環境研究中心所推出的新版移動應用，它能夠幫助用戶追蹤各省空氣和水質惡化的情況，並且學習在購物時如何才能做到更加環保。 採訪節選如下：

Q. How did you come up with the idea for this app?

問：製作這個應用的想法是怎麼來的？

A. It was 2013. At that time, after we released the pollution map on the PC platform, we were able to motivate more than 1,700 companies to change their behavior. But there were many more and obviously we needed to scale up our work.

答：那是2013年的事。當時我們在PC平臺上推出了污染地圖後，成功地動員了超過1700家污染企業改變他們的排污行爲。但是還有更多這樣的企業，很明顯，我們需要擴大工作規模。

We needed more people to join this effort and we needed a higher level of transparency. So we decided to launch a transparency initiative with 25 organizations and N.G.O.s calling for a total release of monitoring data.

我們需要更多人一起共同努力，需要更高的透明度。所以我們決定同25家組織和NGO一起發起一場透明度倡議，呼籲發佈整體監測數據。

Our first request was for online monitoring data. For more than 10 years this kind of data could only be accessed by environmental agencies, not by the public. To our surprise, the Ministry of Environmental Protection came up with a bylaw to require real-time disclosure.

我們首先要求的是在線監測數據。在過去十多年裏，只有環保部門才能獲取這類數據，公衆是無法獲得的。不過讓我們驚訝的是，國家環保部發布了一項規定，要求對數據進行實時披露。

Starting in 2004, more than 20 provinces created platforms to carry real-time monitoring data on China’s largest industries.

2004年開始，20多個省搭建了平臺，公佈對中國最大幾個行業的實時監測數據。

Toward the end of 2013 we started preparing this app. The real-time disclosure created a need and also made it possible to sustain such a product.

到2013年底，我們開始籌備這款應用。數據的實時披露創造了一種需求，同時也使它能撐得起這樣一個產品。

The mobile Internet is so popular. We believe it can help people to access the data and, more than that, tap into social media. So people can not only access monitoring data but also share it.

移動互聯網非常受歡迎。我們相信它不僅能夠幫助人們獲取監測數據，還能讓人們通過利用社交媒體分享數據。

Q. How does the app work?

問：它是怎麼用的呢？

A. The 1.0 version was launched on June 9, 2013. It provided people access to air quality data in 190 cities, plus monitoring data for major air pollution emitters. Air quality data is something that people really need in China. Many cities can’t meet healthy air quality standards, and people check air quality data like they check weather forecasts.

答：我們在2013年6月9號推出了應用的1.0 版本。它向人們提供190座城市的空氣質量數據，以及主要空氣污染源的監測數據。空氣質量數據是中國人特別需要的東西。很多城市無法達到健康的空氣質量標準，人們像查看天氣預報一樣頻繁地查看空氣質量數據。

Then we added monitoring data. There are many people who don’t just want to know which day the air is bad and when they need to keep their children indoors, they want to solve this problem. This app gives them chance to join the fight against pollution.

之後我們增加了監測數據。很多人不只是想知道哪一天空氣糟糕，什麼時候孩子不宜出門，他們想要解決這個問題。這款應用提供機會讓他們一起加入對抗污染行列。

They can share monitoring data on Weibo and let more people understand the pollution problem and the violation record of those major emitters.

人們可以通過微博來分享監測數據，讓更多的人瞭解污染問題和主要污染源的違法記錄。

Through this more than 400 emitters have openly addressed their emissions records. Sometimes they claim something is wrong with the data. Many more explain what went wrong and how they solved the problem. Some provide detailed correction plans. In Shandong Province, government agencies gave them deadlines to fix the problem. We created a countdown clock attached to each factory, so when users click it they can see the corrective action plan with the countdown clock.

超過400家污染企業對他們的污染記錄做出了公開回應。有些時候，污染企業聲稱數據有誤。更多的時候則是對污染問題和他們的解決方案進行解釋。有些企業則提供了詳細的整改方案。在山東省，政府機構要求企業限期整頓污染問題。我們在應用上給每一家工廠設置了倒計時，這樣用戶點開應用就能看到整改行動計劃和倒計時。

If they comply with the standards, the company turns blue, otherwise it’s shown in red. It’s quite visual and the whole process is under public scrutiny.

如果企業遵守標準，那麼它們在應用上就會顯示爲藍色，否則就爲紅色。這是相當形象的，整個過程都受到了公衆的監督。

The 1.0 version only addresses air quality, but the new version, which is being officially launched on the 28th [of April], will help people access water quality data for rivers and lakes in different parts of China and monitoring data for major sewage plants, paper mills, dye houses and chemical factories.

新版本的應用將於4月28號正式推出。和只提供空氣質量數據的1.0版本不同， 新版本的應用將會幫助人們獲取中國各地的河流湖泊的水質數據，以及主要污水處理廠、造紙廠、印染廠和化工廠的監測數據。

Q. How many downloads have you had?

問：已經有多少下載量？

A. Including tests of the 2.0 version, so far more than three million.

答：包括2.0測試版本，目前已有超過300萬次下載。

There has been such interaction between ordinary people and environmental agencies. I haven’t seen anything quite like this before.

普通民衆和環境部門之間的互動非常活躍，這是我以前從未見過的。

Q. What has the official response been? Sometimes from the government you see both sides. They want public involvement, but they’re also wary.

問：官方的反應怎麼樣？有時政府表現出兩面性，他們想要公衆參與，但又很警惕。

A. I would say that’s definitely true with our app. The most proactive players are Shandong and Zhejiang provinces and a few others. There are also many local environmental agencies that have concerns and complaints. It caught some unprepared, when you suddenly get so many reports against some of the largest companies in a region.

對我們的應用而言，真的是這樣。最積極的參與者在山東、浙江以及其他幾個省份。也有許多地方的環境部門有擔心和抱怨。有的地方覺得猝不及防，突然收到那麼多針對當地大公司的舉報。

Sometimes they have gaps in their capacity, human resources and budget. And sometimes they have restrictions. The local officials, their superiors, interfere with enforcement. They get stuck in the middle.

他們有時在能力、人力資源和財政方面有困難。有時還遇到限制。地方官員，他們的上級，還會強制干預，這讓他們左右爲難。

We need to communicate with those local agencies to try to help them deal with this, to work out plans to handle this new situation.

我們需要和那些地方上的政府部門溝通，幫助他們想出處理這種新情況的辦法。

There are proactive ones. In Shandong, the head of the provincial Environmental Protection bureau invited us there. That’s a province with 100 million people burning 400 million tons of coal a year, probably half the total U.S. consumption. It’s quite energy intensive.

有的很積極。在山東，省環保局的領導向我們發出了邀請。這個有着一億人口的能源消耗大省，每年燃燒四億噸煤，幾乎相當於全美國一半的消耗量。

I thought we were going to be under pressure, but actually he said, “This is exactly what we want. I’ve been told to solve this smog problem. We try hard but we can’t do it single-handedly. We need the public. The app will help. We just want make sure people don’t misinterpret the fact we have more red dots.”

我當時以爲是要向我們施壓，但是那位領導說，“這就是我們想要的。我受命要解決這個霧霾問題。我們很努力，但是僅靠我們是不行的。我們需要公衆。這款應用會起作用。我們只是想確保不要被人誤解，爲什麼我們的紅點特別多。”

We help them explain [to citizens] it’s better to have an environmental agency give more comprehensive data.

我們幫他們（對公衆）解釋，環境部門提供更詳實的數據是件好事。

Last year there was a statement by the premier [Li Keqiang] about going to war against pollution. Actions followed to really make it happen. In my view this decision to make online monitoring data transparent, this is a sign of China’s political will to fight pollution. I said that in the Skoll Award ceremony, and it got a standing ovation. It’s clear that if you give data to people you empower them. It’s no longer possible to continue to cover up or give continued protection to major polluters.

去年[李克強]總理做出了向污染宣戰的聲明。隨後有切實的行動。在我看來，這項讓在線監督數據更透明的決定，表明中國是願意打擊污染的。我在斯科爾頒獎典禮上這麼說了，觀衆都起立鼓掌。很明顯如果你把數據公佈給民衆，就不會有遮掩或者是繼續保護主要污染者的事了。

In China the biggest barrier is not technology or money. It’s lack of motivation. Enforcement remains weak. In the West, people go to court. In China that judicial protection is not yet ready. We need to find alternative ways. In my view public participation is one of the few options.

在中國最大的障礙不是技術或者錢，而是缺乏動力。環境執法部門依然弱勢。在西方可以上法庭。而在中國，司法保護還沒準備好。我們需要找到更多方式。在我看來公衆參與就是其中之一。

If people can check on their cellphone who is in violation, those who gave protection [to polluters] can be held accountable.

如果人們能在手機上找到誰在違法，那些給予（污染者）保護的人就能受到問責。

Q. Do you think public attitudes about pollution are changing?

問：你認爲公衆對污染的態度在改變嗎？

A. Over all in China there is so much more recognition. I basically think this is a clear sign for the central government. There is political will to try to solve the problem. They understand this matter is a public health issue, a resource issue, a social stability issue and, last but not least, there’s the global issue to fight climate change. There’s a recognition. They are genuinely trying to bring this pollution issue under control. They created an air action plan and a water action plan.

答：總的來說認識上已經有很大提高。基本上我認爲這對中央政府是一個清晰信號。他們有政治意願試圖解決問題。他們明白這事關公衆健康問題、資源問題、社會穩定問題，尤其還有應對氣候變化的全球問題。有了這樣的共識，他們真心想要控制污染問題，還就空氣和水的問題分別制定了行動方案。

Having said that, on the ground it’s still challenging to turn this into action. There are so much interests that could be offended, that could be impacted. And also there’s the gap we have in environmental governance. Because the cost of violations is still lower than the cost of compliance, market forces are not on our side.

即便如此，要把這些變爲行動在事實上仍有困難。有太多利益會被冒犯，會被影響。同時在環境治理方面也有缺口。因爲違規的代價仍舊低於合規，市場的力量沒有體現出來。

Even from the government side there’s a recognition that fighting pollution needs public participation. That’s why last year we saw the Environmental Protection Law revised for the first time in 25 years. It created a special chapter with a title on transparency and public participation. It shows there’s more social consensus for the need of transparency.

連政府方面都承認，治理污染需要公衆參與。這也是爲什麼我們看到去年環境保護法得到了25年來的第一次修改修訂。新的環保法專門加入了一個以信息公開和公衆參與爲題的章節。這展現了需要更多透明度的社會共識。

Q. What was your reaction to receiving a Skoll Award for Social Entrepreneurship this month in Oxford?

問：你對本月去牛津接受“斯科爾社會企業家獎”作何感想？

A. Of course I’m honored, but also quite humbled. They’ve done it for quite a few years, with hundreds of social entrepreneurs recognized in different parts of the world. This is the first time there’s been someone from China. I think this will be a major support.

答：當我很榮幸，也感到受寵若驚。他們頒發這個獎已經好幾年了，全球各地數百位社會企業家獲得了他們的嘉許。這是首次有中國人獲獎。我認爲這是對我們的巨大支持。

The meeting itself has already benefited us because we can learn so much from other social entrepreneurs. This helps us to gain credibility with the business community, because some of the largest multinationals are there. And then the other people, the other awardees, I think some were quite surprised about our work because this is a different type of story than they usually hear from China.

這個會議本身已經令我們受益，因爲我們可以向其他社會企業家借鑑良多。它也有助於我們贏得商業界的信任，因爲有一些大型跨國公司也在場。那裏還有其他人，其他獲獎者，我感覺其中有些人對我們的工作感到非常驚訝，因爲這與他們通常聽到的中國的事情不太一樣。

Q. The award comes with $1.25 million in prize money. What will you do with it?

問：這個獎項有125萬美元的獎金。你會怎麼花這些錢呢？

A. We will spend most of that to build on our pollution map. We now have a 2.0 version called the Blue Map. We hope the image of the blue sky that has been lost in most of our cities can inspire people to join the effort. We will use most of the prize money to try to further develop that.

答：我們會把大部分錢花在繪製污染地圖上。我們現在有一個2.0版本，稱爲“蔚藍地圖”。我們希望藍天的圖片可以激勵人們加入這項活動，因爲中國大部分城市的天空都不再蔚藍了。我們會把大部分獎金用在進一步開發這個地圖上。

One of the functions we are going to add is taking a picture, so you can actually get data printed on that. So people can share their own pictures on social media and get data on that from our sources.

我們要添加拍照功能，這樣你就可以在自己的照片上顯示從我們的數據源獲得的數據，然後你可以在社交媒體上分享這些照片，更多的人就可以看到我們的數據。

Another, much bigger function we need is to add a platform for green consumerism. It is quite important for us to engage with consumers. If we help people visualize the link between air and water pollution, factory behavior and then consumer choice. Then we develop a methodology to score those brands. If we help to visualize that, then we provide another way for people to fight pollution. I hope this gives those brands a better incentive for responsible corporate behavior.

另外，我們還需要一個更大的功能，就是增加一個綠色消費平臺。讓消費者參與進來，這對我們很重要。如果我們把空氣和水污染、工廠的行爲以及消費者的選擇之間的聯繫進行可視化，然後制定一種方法來給那些品牌打分。如果我們做出這種可視化的資料，那麼我們就提供了另一種方式，讓人們來與污染做鬥爭。我希望這是一種更好的激勵方式，來促進那些品牌採取負責任的企業行爲。

With the launch of the 2.0 version, air quality data will be extended from 190 to 380 cities in China every hour. We will also have some forecasts, not just weather forecasts but also forecasts of air quality, so people better arrange their activities to avoid the worst exposure. For the first time it will have data on water quality in rivers and lakes in different parts of China. China has made remarkable progress. Three years ago no cities in China released PM 2.5 [fine particulate matter] data. Today there are 380 that do.

隨着2.0版本的推出，我們提供每小時空氣質量數據的中國城市數目將從原來的190個增加到380個。我們也會提供一些預報，不僅僅是天氣預報，也包括空氣質量預報，讓人們更好地安排自己的活動，避開最糟糕的環境。這也會是首次爲中國不同地區的江河湖泊提供水質數據。中國已經取得了顯著的進展。三年前，中國沒有任何城市公佈PM 2.5[細顆粒物]數據。如今已經有380個城市在這麼做。

We have to handle this quite carefully. Transparency is what we depend on. It’s very positive for the government. We give credit to the government. But it’s not easy. I hope that this can continue. If it does, it will drive more polluting factories to change. This boosts confidence for further transparency, which I think is so important.

我們必須相當小心地開展這些工作。透明度是我們的立足之所。政府對此是非常明確的。這方面我們要肯定政府。但是這並不容易。我希望能持續下去。如果真能繼續，它就會推動更多污染企業做出改變。而這將進一步提高人們對透明度的信心，我認爲這一點極爲重要。